My Experience with Timbren Axless system (kayakdlk)

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Re: My Experience with Timbren Axless system (kayakdlk)

Postby Homebrewer25 » Thu Dec 12, 2019 12:51 pm

TV usually refers to Tow Vehicle.
It's 5 o'clock somewhere ... time for a :beer:

Steve
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Re: My Experience with Timbren Axless system (kayakdlk)

Postby joshwhite » Thu Dec 12, 2019 4:40 pm

I asked a question on eTrailer and here's what they said. I'm wondering what you all think. In my opinion I think this would work perfect for me but what do you all think about the 2200lb Timbrens? Will that be enough?

Question:

Hi, can you tell me if you carry a 5 on 4.5 electric brake hub assembly that will work with the following Timbren axle setup? ASR35HDS02 Im looking to use wheels similar to these with 33inch or 35inch tires. Would this complete setup work? Will the tires clear the trailer frame with this setup? Im looking for this particular 5 on 4.5 so that the wheels match those on my Jeep. My Jeep has a 4.5inch lift. Im not sure if the 4inch Timbren lift is necessary or if I should just go with the standard ones.

Answer:

For you trailer the Timbren axle-less system with 5 on 4.5 bolt pattern, is # ASR1THDS01. This kit is specifically designed for 1-axle and 2-axle trailers that use low-pressure, off-road tires. It has greater distance between hub face and trailer frame to accommodate off road tires. The Kit you are referencing # ASR35HDS02 works with Dexter 6,000 lbs hub and drum assemblies and come with 5 spoke utility, 6 on 5 1/2 or 8 on 6 1/12 bolt patterns.

For hubs and brake assemblies that are confirmed to fit the Timbrens I recommend the Trailer Hub and Drum Assembly for 3.5K E-Z Lube Axles ,10" Diameter with 5 on 4-1/2 # AKHD-545-35-EZ-K. The bearings, races, and seals are all prepacked and installed. That makes installing a little easier since the bearings won't have to be packed.

For the brake assemblies I recommend Electric Trailer Brake Kit - Self-Adjusting - 10" - Left and Right Hand Assemblies # AKEBRK-35-SA. These have a 4 bolt mounting flange and will work perfectly with the Timbrens.

I don't think it is necessary to have the 4 inch lift on your trailer just because your Jeep is lifted. The tires should clear the frame of the trailer with the Timbrens, but you can measure to see if you have enough room. I have attached a photo showing you how much room from the hub face to the frame you will have.

You can measure from the mounting flange of the wheel (inside) to the edge of the tire (closest to the frame). If it is less than 6 7/8" then it will clear.

You can check out the videos I attached for reference.

LINK: https://www.etrailer.com/question-398536.html?fb=yes
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Re: My Experience with Timbren Axless system (kayakdlk)

Postby KTM_Guy » Fri Dec 13, 2019 9:07 am

The brake controllers Would wire from the battery (10 ga wire with resetting fuse) to controller, tap into the the wire from the brake pedal to the controller. Then a 10 ga wire back to the trailer brakes. Not hard to wire up. You could just use an SAE plug for brakes if you don’t want to change over to a 7 pin.

You should be fine with the back space. I use the stock wheels which are I think 5.25” I was about 1” from the sidewall of the tire to the cabin wall. The bigger problem is the bore on the wheel. The stock wheel bore was to small for the spindle, I needed to go with 1.5” wheel adapters. That gave me the clearance I wanted to the cabin, 1” would probably be fine on an on road trailer but I was worried about mud with such close clearance.

Todd

PS and yes TV is for Tow Vehicle.
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Re: My Experience with Timbren Axless system (kayakdlk)

Postby Squigie » Fri Dec 13, 2019 10:48 am

I opted for the one 'tonne' (2,200 lb) suspension (ASR1THDS01). But my goal for my trailer - a dinky 8-foot, heated hunting shelter - is less than 800 lb, finished. Even if it ends up heavy, at say, 1,000 lb, I still have a decent amount of useful load available without maxing out the suspension.
It also gives me the longest travel available.

Whether or not that will work for you depends on how big you go, how much you plan to cram into the space, how weight conscious you will be, and how hard you plan to drive.

The parts you're looking at do appear to be appropriate, otherwise.
For brakes, you do need a controller. How you get the brake wire from the controller back to the trailer is up to you. As suggested, the easier options are rewire for 7-pin, or use a separate connector.

Two things to keep in mind:
1. eTrailer's dimensions for the Timbren suspension aren't always correct. In fact, some of the products have absolutely incorrect dimensions listed.
Proper dimensions can be found here: http://timbren-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/ASR400-7000-Dims-Specs-Imperial-Rev032918.pdf

2. The big bolt head on the arm pivot is not factored into the dimensions given by Timbren or retailers. (Except for the 'y' dimension of swing arm effective length; but that's not the point here.) For most of their suspension options, when used with appropriate or expected tire sizes, the bolt head is next to the tire sidewall and sticks out about 3/4". So, clearance to the frame (or suspension 'mounting body(?)) should actually be reduced by at least 3/4", while also considering how much sidewall bulge your tires will have.

I took Timbren's dimensions for granted when I ordered the suspension and some wheels. When I took measurements and mocked things up to double-check all of my previous calculations, I found that I was going to have sidewall rubbing the bolt head. -- In my case, it wasn't just the bolt head that got me. The wheels also came in with a 0.80" offset, even though they were listed as "zero offset" by a company that specifies offsets down to 0.020". (eTrailer didn't believe me, accused me of not knowing how to measure wheels, and warned me that I would have to cover all shipping costs; but a polite discussion with customer service got one of their returns guys to measure the wheels - and, eventually, the rest that they had in stock - and came back with, "Yep, they have an offset. We have a supplier problem.")
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Re: My Experience with Timbren Axless system (kayakdlk)

Postby joshwhite » Fri Dec 13, 2019 12:45 pm

Thanks for all the replies.
I went forward and ordered the 2200lb version last night with 5 on 4.5 hubs and brakes. Once they arrive I'll be taking them into the 4wheel parts store nearby to check options for wheels and tires that will leave me with plenty of room for the sidewalls, at least that's the plan. If something doesn't work out, which I doubt, then I can just return/exchange the Timbrens.

I can't image that my camper will exceed 2000lbs. I'd assume it will be much less than that actually. Here's a shot of the camper. It's practically complete, just need to coat it, add the doors and a few other small things... I didn't use any crazy heavy 2x4s in the construction. Most of the build is plywood with 2x2s. The frame itself only weighs ~250lbs. The hatch will carry 10 gal of water and the tongue box will house a couple of batteries.

Image

Even if by chance the camper ends up weighing 2000lbs, which is highly unlikely, then I still have wiggle room. I don't plan on being rough with it, at least not for a while until I get comfortable.
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Re: My Experience with Timbren Axless system (kayakdlk)

Postby working on it » Fri Dec 13, 2019 1:53 pm

joshwhite wrote:...I can't image that my camper will exceed 2000lbs. I'd assume it will be much less than that actually.
...It's practically complete, just need to coat it, add the doors and a few other small things.
...I didn't use any crazy heavy 2x4s in the construction. Most of the build is plywood with 2x2s. The frame itself only weighs ~250lbs.
...Even if by chance the camper ends up weighing 2000lbs, which is highly unlikely, then I still have wiggle room....

* Good luck with that plan; I aimed for <1000lbs, and missed that mark by a mile. I never imagined that it would be 48% over my goal, on my first outing. I weighed it two times, during construction: 1) just the rolling frame= 400lbs (exactly), and 2) first "completion" (they're never complete), at 1280 lbs (both weights on certified scales). After that point, everything going in or modifying the trailer has been weighed separately. Now my TTT has grown to twice+ my initial maximum weigh aimpoint.

* After awhile, you'll probably make changes to your trailer, both in load-out and in structure (lights, awning, roofrack, solar?, etc) to make the travel/camping experience better/easier/safer. I know that I've already gone to extremes, but there are still many more modifications I'd like to do, all adding more weight to my TTT, but which I'll forgo since they're not necessities for my limited camping use.

* That said, I don't regret building the overweight, over-stuffed trailer as I do use most of what features and gear I take along (though I never know exactly which combination I'll use beforehand, thus the over-packing problem). And some equipment, and especially structural or rolling stock improvements that I've felt were absolutely needed, and I should've always have had...better tires and heavy-duty axle/frame reinforcements. All added substantial weight to my trailer.

* I use leaf springs, and chose 3000lbs a pair leaves, even when the trailer was "only" at 1650lbs, because I believe in a margin of capacity (having had overloaded springs break before), and by the time I upgraded my suspension, I was sure that the trailer weight was still on the upswing. My beginning axle was capable of hauling 1000lbs at best/safely, and I was quite lucky to have it fail a year later, while stowing it in my garage, not on the highway. I upgraded to a braked 3500 lb axle, and all new springs/hangers/hardware (and a polyurethane bumpstop/shock device), and reinforced the frame with 1/4" thick angle iron. But, I still waited four more years to put on much-safer LT tires, in lieu of my 12-year -old may-pop ST tires. All of those added about (I forget) 300 lbs.

* If I were you, I might just factor-in upgrade possibilities of the future, and change the 2200 lb Timbren order to 3500 lb, even if you might have to use lighter capacity rubber springs with them, for awhile. Better now than later.
2013 HHRv "squareback/squaredrop", rugged, 4x8 TTT, 2220 lbs
  • *3500 lb Dexter EZ-Lube braked axle, 3000 lb.springs, active-progressive bumpstop suspension
  • *27 x 8.5-14LT AT tires (x 3) *Weight Distribution system for single-beam tongue
  • *100% LED's & GFCI outlets, 3x fans, AM/FM/CD/Aux. *A/C & heat, Optima AGM, inverter & charger(s)
  • *extended-run, on-board, 2500w generator *Coleman dual-fuel stove & lantern, Ikea grill, vintage skillet
  • *zinc/stainless front & side racks *98"L x 6" diameter rod & reel carrier tube on roof
156215157958148599
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Re: My Experience with Timbren Axless system (kayakdlk)

Postby joshwhite » Fri Dec 13, 2019 3:17 pm

I appreciate all the feedback!
Now I feel like I did the wrong thing by ordering the 2200lb setup. One other reason I did that was because that's the only way to get my 5 on 4.5 lug pattern which matches the Jeep towing this thing.

I got my inspiration form this guys build over a year ago before I started my build. His weighs 1240lb and his build is constructed with a lot of 2x3s, extended over the tongue and off the rear, plus it's taller than mine. That's why I thought I could get away 2200lb Timbrens.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nxe44DkMsTo

It's going to cost me $150 to ship my eTrailer order back and more to upgrade to 3500 with 6 on 5.5 hubs. Then it will cost me more because I won't be able to use my spare set of 5 on 4.5 wheels with tires.
I think I'm going to use what I ordered and if it poses a problem, I can upgrade later on and try to sell the 2200 ones locally.
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Re: My Experience with Timbren Axless system (kayakdlk)

Postby drhill » Fri Dec 13, 2019 3:38 pm

I have a heavily built 5 x 10 trailer and it is under 2000 lbs when fully loaded with cooler, water and bikes. I don't think there is any way your 4x8 will exceed 2000 lbs, and if it did then you need a stranger trailer frame. Those Timbren axles should ride great.
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Re: My Experience with Timbren Axless system (kayakdlk)

Postby Squigie » Fri Dec 13, 2019 4:31 pm

drhill wrote:I don't think there is any way your 4x8 will exceed 2000 lbs, and if it did then you need a stranger trailer frame.

I agree.

I don't think 3,500 lb suspension is needed here, based on the information provided.
I believe 1 tonne to be adequate. And, as mentioned, the 1 tonne rating of the suspension already exceeds the capacity of the trailer by a notable margin.

In the end, it is entirely joshwhite's decision to make.
But, another perspective to take is:
Sit back, look at a picture of the trailer, and think about how much stuff you would need to add or pack inside it to exceed 2,000 lbs.

I just ran through the build thread. I see a trailer that I think will roll across the scales under 1,000 lbs (unless the tire choice is a really heavy one) before being packed full of gear.
I am no expert. My estimations are probably wrong. But that's what I see.
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Re: My Experience with Timbren Axless system (kayakdlk)

Postby joshwhite » Fri Dec 13, 2019 4:56 pm

Great, I'm feeling better about it again ;)

Let's look at it this way, in a very rough estimate way:

Trailer frame alone weighs ~250lb
One sheet of 1/2 ply weighs 30lbs, I'm using less than 8 sheets in my build. That equals ~240lbs
One sheet of 3/4 ply weights ~50lbs, I'm using less than 3 sheets. That equals ~150lbs
One 2x2x8 furring strip weights ~4lbs, I'm using roughly 20 of these cut down to size. That equals ~80lbs at full length.

Those numbers on the high end equal 720lbs.

Then I have insulation, screws, glue, nails and all of that. I'll add 100lbs to be safe.

Now I'm at ~820lbs on the high side.

I've added some structural support to the frame, let's say ~50lbs.

Now I'm at 870lbs on the high side.

I need to install my doors. Those probably weigh about 30lbs a piece.

Now I'm at 930lbs on the high side.

I'm going to bedline the unit, so lets add 100lbs there.

Now I'm at 1030lbs on the high side.

My galley area sink, burner, storage and whatnot, plus 10 gallons of water, lets say another 100lbs.

Now I'm at 1130lbs on the high side.

Lets say I add a couple of AGM 100ah batteries to the tongue box, let's add 150lbs for that.

Now I'm at 1280lbs.

Let me add a roof rack and awning. Lets say 200lbs for that.

Now I'm at 1480lbs on the high side.

I can't image I'll be adding a whole lot more to this build in the future. It's built to serve the purpose of sleeping in. I have Cherokee Sport that's gutted besides the two front seats. I have a lot of storage in there I use for lots of things.

Just throwing some numbers out there to see what ya'll think.
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Re: My Experience with Timbren Axless system (kayakdlk)

Postby KTM_Guy » Sat Dec 14, 2019 1:49 pm

You said you just ordered them the other night, so knowing Etrailer they probably didn't ship yet, if that's the case I would have them hold the order and call Timbren and ask them. I was at 1730# and they said I was over the weight limit of the 2000# springs that I had :? . I still needed to add a 25 gallon water tank and spare tire and knew I needed to go to 3500#. If nothing else call them and give them the part number of what you bought and see if the spring is replaceable, not all can be. It cost me about $250 for the two springs and shipping.

I think you should be close on your weight estimate. You are high on some things but you forgot the weight on the Timbren's, wheels and tires (especially 35"') drums, and the extra steel need to reenforce the HF frame. You could be looking at 300+ pounds there.

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Re: My Experience with Timbren Axless system (kayakdlk)

Postby gudmund » Sat Dec 14, 2019 6:20 pm

my 1st teardrop (4x8) with a commercial built frame (welded box steel 2x2 w/Dexter torsion bar suspension)3/4inch plywood floor/sidewalls weighed right at 900lbs axle (without tongue weight) empty and was always at 1200/1300lbs fully loaded - ice chest, spare tire etc. My trailer of today is still a commercial built welded frame but is now of 2x3 welded box steel (much heavier) w/trailer brakes, same 3/4inch plywood sidewalls/floor but with more of it being used, it also uses it in the cabinet doors and all of the cross panels/shelves - gluing/screwing it all together. This trailer is 'overbuilt' like a 'tank'. With the trailer/tongue box fully loaded with the group 27 battery - spare tire mounted (14inch wheels/tires, etc. (leaf springs this time)it all weights in (fully loaded) at 1460lbs on the axle (1600 lbs total w/tongue)(note: There is NO cooler in the trailer any longer - after all of the water leak problems in the last trailer, I finally conceded too the back PU box as the cooler carry location. I have weighted this setup many a time, in fact - finding the Washington State truck scales here seeming to be 'very' accurate with all of them so far always 'agreeing' when using various locations when traveling (Oregon's having been in 'agree-ance' also - I just like Washington's better being they weight in 20lb increments - Oregon's are in 50lb's)...............
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Re: My Experience with Timbren Axless system (kayakdlk)

Postby joshwhite » Mon Dec 16, 2019 1:01 pm

Talked with a Timbren tech this morning about my 1 Tonne (2200lb) setup that will be here tomorrow. I explained that I can't imagine that my camper will ever exceed the 1800lb mark and he said that even if I am close to or pushing 2000lbs, these 1 Tonnes will still work just fine. He said that there is a possibility of them bottoming out if I start to get close to the 2200lb mark but simply said for me to install them, try them out and see how they ride. He said that if there is a problem to get in touch with them and they can bump up the grade of the springs for me to something like a 3klb spring. He said they suspension is built around the spring load so they can't upgrade me to anything more than that but he's confident I'll be ok with what I ordered.

just thought I'd update you all on what they said.
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Re: My Experience with Timbren Axless system (kayakdlk)

Postby KTM_Guy » Mon Dec 16, 2019 11:06 pm

That should give you peace of mind. Timbren has great customer service and tech support seems silly not to take advantage of it.

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Re: My Experience with Timbren Axless system (kayakdlk)

Postby joshwhite » Sun Dec 22, 2019 7:13 pm

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